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Joy McCullough writes books and plays from her home in the Seattle area, where she lives with her family. Her debut novel, Blood Water Paint, was longlisted for the National Book Award and was a finalist for the William C. Morris Debut Award. McCullough published two books in 2023: Enter the Body (Dutton Books, $18.99) for young adults, and Code Red (Atheneum, $17.99) for middle-grade readers.
Hannah V. Sawyerr was the Youth Poet Laureate of Baltimore in 2016. She holds a BA in English from Morgan State University, and an MFA in Creative Writing from The New School. Sawyerr is an English professor at Loyola Marymount University and lives in Los Angeles, Calif. Her debut novel, All the Fighting Parts (Amulet Books, $19.99), came out earlier this month.
The two met when Sawyerr took an online verse novel class from McCullough via Zoom in 2020 during the pandemic. Here the authors discuss their personal experiences with assault and the church, the significance of community, and the importance of reclaiming one's story.
Joy McCullough: You stood out [in class] from the first time you shared something with the [group]. When you mentioned the book you were working on--All the Fighting Parts--I instantly wanted to read the whole thing.
Hannah V. Sawyerr: Thank you so much, Joy! I was so excited to take your class because your novel Blood Water Paint was one of the first verse novels I'd ever read. It's one of the books that made me think that my book could even be possible.
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| Joy McCullough (photo: Joe Iano) |
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McCullough: I'm so thrilled that Blood Water Paint spoke to you in that way. I feel like there's a thread from story to story: Artemisia's story (the subject of BWP) spoke to me, and I wrote it; that spoke to you, and you wrote All the Fighting Parts; and I am absolutely certain readers will be inspired to tell their stories because of yours.
Sawyerr: I think what's so special to me about your books is the theme of reclamation--we both tell stories of young women who long to reclaim their narratives. This was my experience with Enter the Body, too. What does it mean to you to write stories of women who take their power back by reclaiming their stories?
McCullough: One of the less fun things we have in common is that we both experienced abuse as teenagers in the church. When I came forward about that, not everyone believed me. That was deeply painful, obviously. So, when I write stories of young women who speak their truths and fight to be believed, it's sort of like another chance for me. And when people respond to those books, to those characters, it feels like my own story is validated in a way.
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| Hannah Sawyerr (photo: Missallaneous Media) |
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Sawyerr: I had a similar experience of not being believed and it was really hurtful to feel like my community, who should protect and defend me, didn't. When I write my stories now, I feel like I'm protecting my younger self the way she deserved to be protected. I actually first learned of you and your work because I was following you on Twitter, and you tweeted about survival and your experience with sexual assault within the church. So even before I read your work, I felt seen just by knowing that you got through that and were able to tell stories that empower young people now.
McCullough: It's another thing our books have in common: an emphasis on helping our characters connect with the people who will support them so that they can feel less alone. In Enter the Body, I have characters who are alone in their original Shakespeare stories, but I put them together to have one another in the book. In All the Fighting Parts, one of the things I really love is watching the development of Mina's relationships--with her boyfriend, her best friend, her father, even the girl who's kind of a nemesis. They're complicated relationships, but I knew even as I read the difficult parts that Mina was not going to be alone.
Sawyerr: One thing that I remember hearing growing up is "nobody is meant to be an island," meaning people are meant to be in a community. I really felt that in Enter the Body--I loved that you wrote about characters from completely different Shakespeare plays and put them together to develop a sense of comradery and support. I think that's what's so special about community. It doesn't mean that you'll always get along with folks around you, but love is always at the center. In Enter the Body, even when the girls would bicker, it was clear to me that they were still a community.
McCullough: Yes, in both our books, the relationships are supportive, but also challenging. We see the full complexity of what it means to be in a relationship, not just the extremes of when our characters are in the worst experiences of their lives. That's why I was so happy that your character Mina has a positive, realistic relationship with a guy who isn't perfect, but is definitely good. I think it's so important to counteract the image of rape victims as broken.
Sawyerr: I agree. I was so happy to read the way you wrote Juliet speaking positively about her intimate moments with Romeo. As a survivor, it really touched me to read Juliet speak of her body and her experiences with Romeo in a way that centered pleasure instead of shame. I think it's important for young survivors to have access to stories that feature girls experiencing pleasure. For me, it's healing to read stories where young women are exploring their bodies and sexual intimacy. For young readers, I think it can serve as a reminder that these experiences can be healthy and good.
McCullough: Yes, it's one of the (many!) reasons that the rampant book banning is so harmful. Reading about sexual experiences in a book is pretty much the safest way to explore that topic. And I love author Elana K. Arnold, who says that reading a book is one of the best lessons in consent. If something is uncomfortable or just not right for a reader, they can put it down and say, "No, thank you." But for so many readers, books are where they can safely explore experiences outside of themselves.
So, we both write in verse, but we also both mix it up. In Enter the Body, I've got some sections that are in play script format. In All the Fighting Parts, you've got sections in police interview transcript, and online articles and (ugh) comments. Was that structure in your mind from the beginning, or did it develop with the story?
Sawyerr: I think verse novels are great because you spend a lot of time in a character's head, and you get to know them on a personal and emotional level. But a challenge with verse is finding a way to ground your reader. I knew how long we'd spend in Amina's head, so the court transcripts allowed me to catch up with the reader and bring us back to reality.
McCullough: And court transcripts are another thread connecting our work; the primary source document for Blood Water Paint was the court transcripts of the trial of Artemisia Gentileschi's rapist. I know that All the Fighting Parts is fiction, but I also know you were drawing from personal experience with the court system.
Sawyerr: When I wrote the court transcripts for All the Fighting Parts, I referenced the court transcripts in my own case to get in the headspace of Amina, a young woman who also comes forward against her abuser. I only read what I could handle, but what I did read was a form of study for me, similarly to how Artemisia's court transcripts served you in Blood Water Paint.
McCullough: I am so excited for All the Fighting Parts to be in the world. It is incredibly gutsy, and I just know it's going to mean so much to readers who are going to find themselves in the pages.
Sawyerr: Thank you so much, Joy. And I cannot thank you enough for the books that you've written. It's truly my hope that my work has a similar impact on people that your work has had on me and so many other readers!
McCullough: I look forward to reading your in-conversation piece in a few years, with a debut author who wrote a book because she was inspired by your story.
Sawyerr: Thank you, Joy. And I'd imagine that I'd be talking about how your books have done the same for me.